Vote Undocumented Immigrants for TIME Magazine Person of the Year

Hello, 

 

Just wanted to let you know that TIME magazine is currently seeking for its yearly person of the year.  Although, I think this honor is going to be given to the much deserve activist Malala Yousafzai, Undocumented Immigrants can win the popular vote.  The winner of the people's choice for the person who most influenced the news this year for better or worse will be announced on December 14. Voting closes at 11:59 PM on December 12th.

 

You can vote here: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2128881_2128882_2129191,00.html

 

Please share with your family and friends and vote.  This is something extremely powerful! The more undocumented people get recognize and reminded they are part of this nation, the higher the likelihood we will not be ignored. 

 

Thank you! 

 

Love,

Gaby

 

Gaby Pacheco

202-503-4229

305-600-9585

Trail2010.org

Twitter: @gabypacheco1

Facebook: fb.com/FBGabyPacheco1

 

The greatest commandment of all,
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself."

 

Confidentiality Notice: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of this communication by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited.

 

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RE: As you work with immigrant workers - Please consider attending this Forum on Nov 30- Dec 1

Thanks, I will try to be there on saturday

 

From: Edwin Argueta [mailto:edwin@massjwj.net]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 11:43 AM
To: may1stcoalition@googlegroups.com; maraiddetentionresistancenetwork@googlegroups.com; iwcc.coordinator@gmail.com; iwcctogether@gmail.com
Cc: 'diego low' (metrowest.worker.center@gmail.com); metrowest.immigrant.worker.center@gmail.com; fionayu@cpaboston.org; lydia@cpaboston.org; mirna.montano@masscosh.org; marcy.gelb@masscosh.org; Rolando Oliva; adrianventura@live.com; cctnbm@hotmail.com; Patricia Montes; pmcdermott@cpresente.org; Yessenia Alfaro; gladysv@chelseacollab.org; Maria Belen Power; MARIA Natalicia ROCHA-TRACY; lydia.m.edwards@gmail.com; heloisa@verdeamarelo.org; mass-coalition-for-domestic-workers@googlegroups.com; Gabriel Camacho; gabelac@comcast.net; bliss.requatrautz@gmail.com; bliss@a-dp.org
Subject: As you work with immigrant workers - Please consider attending this Forum on Nov 30- Dec 1

 

 

Workshop 1:  Why We Need Good Jobs for Strong Communities

What defines a bad job?  Low wages, part-time hours, no benefits and no stability.  With over a million bad jobs in Massachusetts, our communities, particularly communities of color, are faced with the impacts—poor health, uncertain housing, more violence, and poor educational outcomes. Come talk with people from other neighborhoods like yours about what is really going on in our economy.  Where are the bad jobs?  Who has the power over these jobs?   Join in a discussion of what needs to change and how to begin that process. 

Come to this workshop on its own or along with Workshop 2: Getting to Good Jobs

 

Workshop 2: Getting to Good Jobs

From the Walmart campaign to immigrant worker centers to national efforts to improve airport jobs to initiatives to improve part time and temporary work, there are exciting and innovative fights underway across the country and here in Greater Boston.  Come join in mapping some of those fights underway locally.  Explore the extent these campaigns can impact your neighborhood and how you can be part of those fights.  Take a look to see if what we are doing now is enough.  Share your views on whether we can really take on the huge low wage economy.  What strengths do we have and who needs to step up? See what first steps you can take.  

 Come to this workshop on its own or along with Workshop 1: Why We Need Good Jobs for Strong Communities

 

 

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RE: As you work with immigrant workers - Please consider attending this Forum on Nov 30- Dec 1

I will be there on Friday from 12:00pm to 4:00, maga

 

From: edwin@massjwj.net
To: may1stcoalition@googlegroups.com; maraiddetentionresistancenetwork@googlegroups.com; iwcc.coordinator@gmail.com; iwcctogether@gmail.com
CC: metrowest.worker.center@gmail.com; metrowest.immigrant.worker.center@gmail.com; fionayu@cpaboston.org; lydia@cpaboston.org; mirna.montano@masscosh.org; marcy.gelb@masscosh.org; rolandooliva53@yahoo.com; adrianventura@live.com; cctnbm@hotmail.com; pmontes@cpresente.org; pmcdermott@cpresente.org; yesseniaa@chelseacollab.org; gladysv@chelseacollab.org; mariabelenp@chelseacollab.org; nat-tracy@msn.com; lydia.m.edwards@gmail.com; heloisa@verdeamarelo.org; mass-coalition-for-domestic-workers@googlegroups.com; GCamacho@afsc.org; gabelac@comcast.net; bliss.requatrautz@gmail.com; bliss@a-dp.org
Subject: As you work with immigrant workers - Please consider attending this Forum on Nov 30- Dec 1
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 16:42:38 +0000

 

Workshop 1:  Why We Need Good Jobs for Strong Communities

What defines a bad job?  Low wages, part-time hours, no benefits and no stability.  With over a million bad jobs in Massachusetts, our communities, particularly communities of color, are faced with the impacts—poor health, uncertain housing, more violence, and poor educational outcomes. Come talk with people from other neighborhoods like yours about what is really going on in our economy.  Where are the bad jobs?  Who has the power over these jobs?   Join in a discussion of what needs to change and how to begin that process. 

Come to this workshop on its own or along with Workshop 2: Getting to Good Jobs

 

Workshop 2: Getting to Good Jobs

From the Walmart campaign to immigrant worker centers to national efforts to improve airport jobs to initiatives to improve part time and temporary work, there are exciting and innovative fights underway across the country and here in Greater Boston.  Come join in mapping some of those fights underway locally.  Explore the extent these campaigns can impact your neighborhood and how you can be part of those fights.  Take a look to see if what we are doing now is enough.  Share your views on whether we can really take on the huge low wage economy.  What strengths do we have and who needs to step up? See what first steps you can take.  

 Come to this workshop on its own or along with Workshop 1: Why We Need Good Jobs for Strong Communities

 

 

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As you work with immigrant workers - Please consider attending this Forum on Nov 30- Dec 1

 

Workshop 1:  Why We Need Good Jobs for Strong Communities

What defines a bad job?  Low wages, part-time hours, no benefits and no stability.  With over a million bad jobs in Massachusetts, our communities, particularly communities of color, are faced with the impacts—poor health, uncertain housing, more violence, and poor educational outcomes. Come talk with people from other neighborhoods like yours about what is really going on in our economy.  Where are the bad jobs?  Who has the power over these jobs?   Join in a discussion of what needs to change and how to begin that process. 

Come to this workshop on its own or along with Workshop 2: Getting to Good Jobs

 

Workshop 2: Getting to Good Jobs

From the Walmart campaign to immigrant worker centers to national efforts to improve airport jobs to initiatives to improve part time and temporary work, there are exciting and innovative fights underway across the country and here in Greater Boston.  Come join in mapping some of those fights underway locally.  Explore the extent these campaigns can impact your neighborhood and how you can be part of those fights.  Take a look to see if what we are doing now is enough.  Share your views on whether we can really take on the huge low wage economy.  What strengths do we have and who needs to step up? See what first steps you can take.  

 Come to this workshop on its own or along with Workshop 1: Why We Need Good Jobs for Strong Communities

 

 

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As Black Friday approaches please help us support Walmart workers!

Massachusetts Stands Up to Walmart Coalition

                                                                                                            November 15th, 2012

Dear Friend,

Adopt a store, join us for Black Friday!

I am writing to ask you to stand with Walmart retail workers who are committing to reclaim Black Friday—the busiest shopping day of the year—for workers and customers in our communities. Following on the heels of the first-ever strikes by Walmart workers across the country, workers are recommitting and going on strike to stop the company’s retaliation and attempts to silence workers for speaking out for change.

Please consider doing one of the following next Friday:

1)      Delegations of two or more people to Walmart managers to deliver a letter in support of the workers.

2)      Flyering of customers

3)      Thanking Walmart workers

4)      Organize prayer vigils, caroling or our actions outside of Walmart stores or join an existing action.

Locations of Walmart stores, actions, instructions and background material can be found at www.massjwj.net 

Please be sure to take pictures of your peaceful, legal protest and send them to us.

The struggle continues, and we must remember that we cannot change the American economy without changing Walmart.  That’s why we are standing up to support workers who are organizing in the Organization United for Respect at Walmart (OUR Walmart) and Warehouse Workers United (WWU), and joining national community organizations made up of civil rights, faith, women’s, and neighborhood groups to call for immediate changes.

Will you stand with them on Black Friday? If so, we are asking you to adopt a Walmart store and plan a small action on Black Friday.  We’ll provide you with action ideas and materials. Even a small delegation of 2 to 5 people will show support for Walmart workers and send a strong message to Walmart.  For more information please contact Edwin Argueta at edwin@massjwj.net or (617) 524-8778.

 In Solidarity,

  

Edwin Argueta, Coordinator

Massachusetts Stands Up to Walmart

 

 

 

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

randall.m@gmail.com said:
>> Cannibalistic fences, but still just fences.
>
> We have no proof that they ever ate Troll.

Of course, being trolls, it's possible they have cannibalistic feces.

Wayne

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while I've seized your attention...

I stumbled across Cindy Pape's "Kilts & Kraken". If anyone's read it,
can you tell me if this is any good?

Wayne

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

randall.m@gmail.com said:
> We have no proof that they ever ate Troll.

And no proof they didn't.

Race (species?) gets a bit squishy in The Hobbit. There are times that the
dwarves* and the hobbit are referred to as men. This may happen with the
elves as well, but I'm not sure. As non-unidimensional as the trolls are,
I could easily see them being included in the racies that comprise "men".

I don't know if there's a distinction between "men" and "Men" in that book.



Speaking of the dwarves*, it's pretty amazing the difference between dwarves*
in The Hobbit and dwarves* in LotR. Good googamooga. The dwarves* in The
Hobbit are utter cowards (at least up to the point of Bilbo finding The Gem),
they don't bother too much about weapons or armor, and are afraid to go
underground. Surely dwarves* haven't changed so much in the ~100 years
between The Hobbit and LotR. Gimlet would have been ashamed to be associated
with the The Hobbit dwarves*.

Sure, sure, not all dwarves* are the same and there are going to be
personality differences between individual dwarves*. But a whole troop of
dwarves* all as craven as that lot? Only Balin makes much effort against
that, and even that's only hesitant.

Wayne

* Dwarfs, if you'd prefer.

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

In a message dated 11/13/2012 12:20:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, maryann@kih.net writes:
>Wayne said:
>In all fairness, we don't have any real proof the trolls were robbers.
>They could have been fences, and only guilty of receiving stolen goods.
>
>Cannibalistic fences, but still just fences.

Maybe they were Republicans.
GIGGLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Leslie K. Valente
Canvasback

Amagansett, New York
GreatOakDressage@aol.com

Bella Blu Farm
Wellington, Florida
BellaBluFarm@aol.com

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MataHari: Eye of the Day invites you to SAVE THE DATE! MataHari's 10 Year Anniversary... (Dec 15, 2012)

 

Hello,
You are invited to the following event:

SAVE THE DATE! MataHari's 10 Year Anniversary Celebration
divider

Event to be held at the following time, date, and location:

Saturday, December 15, 2012 from 6:00 PM to 11:00 PM (EST)

MIT Media Lab | 6th Floor
20 Ames St
Cambridge, MA 02142

View Map

Attend Event

Share this event:
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divider

Join us in celebrating 10 years of survivorship, sisterhood, and community power! SAVE THE DATE!  Saturday, December 15, 2012  6:00 PM Cocktails & Mingling 7:00 PM Dinner, Performances, Awards ceremony, Dancing MIT Media Lab  (Cambridge, MA) 6th...
Read More

Share this event on Facebook and Twitter

We hope you can make it!

Cheers,
MataHari: Eye of the Day

eventbrite

Eventbrite

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:59 PM, Wayne Morrison <tewok@storm-monkeys.com> wrote:
 >> Given the treasure stored up in their cave, I'm not sure I'd include them in
>> the ranks of the working poor.
>
> burglers, robbers, muggers - the 'non-working class'.

In all fairness, we don't have any real proof the trolls were robbers.
They could have been fences, and only guilty of receiving stolen goods.

Cannibalistic fences, but still just fences.

                                Wayne

We have no proof that they ever ate Troll.

Randall

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RE:Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

MaryAnn, I love you!


Susan Allen
Kill them with kindness. Unless you have a gun."


-------Original Message-------

maryann@kih.net said:
>> Jette said:
>> burglers, robbers, muggers - the 'non-working class'.
>
> Maybe they were Republicans.

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

maryann@kih.net said:
>> Jette said:
>> burglers, robbers, muggers - the 'non-working class'.
>
> Maybe they were Republicans.

Jette said burglars, not bankers. Same profession, vastly different scale.

Wayne

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

>>>Wayne said:
>>> Given the treasure stored up in their cave, I'm not sure I'd include them in
>>> the ranks of the working poor.

>>Jette said:
>> burglers, robbers, muggers - the 'non-working class'.

>Wayne said:
>In all fairness, we don't have any real proof the trolls were robbers.
>They could have been fences, and only guilty of receiving stolen goods.
>
>Cannibalistic fences, but still just fences.

Maybe they were Republicans.

Maryann

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

jgoldie247@btinternet.com said:
> He's Elrond the Half-Elven - his father was Human, his mother an Elf and
> he and his brother had the choice to be Human or Elven. His brother
> chose to be a mortal (Aragorn's ancestor), and Elrond chose to be Elven
> - but that choice was also available to his children. (choice not
> available to the children of the mortal side of the family)

That only came after The Hobbit, right? I think in The Hobbit he was only
listed as en Elf-Friend. It also kinda seemed like the elves lived on one
side of a bridge in a gladee and Elrond lived on the other in his house.

> Most of the elves we meet in the Hobbit are not 'High Elves' but Sylvan
> Elves - their ancestors hadn't travelled to the Undying Lands in the
> West, so they were more grounded in Middle-Earth.

Were those the Mirkwood elves or the Rivendell elves? Or both?

>> Given the treasure stored up in their cave, I'm not sure I'd include them in
>> the ranks of the working poor.
>
> burglers, robbers, muggers - the 'non-working class'.

In all fairness, we don't have any real proof the trolls were robbers.
They could have been fences, and only guilty of receiving stolen goods.

Cannibalistic fences, but still just fences.

Wayne

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On 08/11/2012 20:45, Wayne Morrison wrote:
> randall.m@gmail.com said:
>> It makes for a great sequence in which the Trolls are perfectly
>> comprehensible characters. One could argue whether Tolkien giving them
>> Cockney accents was a way of putting down the poor of his time, or whether
>> it was meant to make us sympathise with the trolls . . . just poor working
>> blokes out of the hills looking for something that isn't mutton to eat.
> Good question and I have no idea. I don't know what Tolkien's politics were
> like, so I don't even know what was likely. I'll choose to believe your
> second option because I didn't realize they had Cockney accents and I really
> like the idea that the trolls are regular guys just out in the hills.
>
> Given the treasure stored up in their cave, I'm not sure I'd include them in
> the ranks of the working poor.
>

burglers, robbers, muggers - the 'non-working class'.

--
Jette Goldie
jette.goldie@gmail.com

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On 07/11/2012 23:54, Wayne Morrison wrote:
> I'm re-reading The Hobbit. It's been a looong time since I last read it.
> I don't remember when, but it was many years prior to the Jackson LotR.
> I've only gotten as far as The Gang getting to the goblin cave and there
> are few things that have struck me so far.
>
> - It has much more of the feeling of a children's book than I remembered.
>
> - Most books with trolls would name them things like Shnurnk, Waggfrump,
> and Grfnozul. JRRT avoided the obvious and named his trolls William,
> Bert, and Tom. I think those are fantastic names for trolls.
>
> - Gandalf doesn't seem to be as knowledgable as in LotR. He also seems to
> be a bit more of a comical character than he becomes in the later books.
>
> - There seems to be a slight implication that Elrond isn't an elf.

He's Elrond the Half-Elven - his father was Human, his mother an Elf and
he and his brother had the choice to be Human or Elven. His brother
chose to be a mortal (Aragorn's ancestor), and Elrond chose to be Elven
- but that choice was also available to his children. (choice not
available to the children of the mortal side of the family)

>
> - The elves themselves give a different impression than in LotR -- less
> serious and more like happy hippies.
>
> Those are just some impressions, maybe things will change as it goes along.
>
> Wayne
>
Most of the elves we meet in the Hobbit are not 'High Elves' but Sylvan
Elves - their ancestors hadn't travelled to the Undying Lands in the
West, so they were more grounded in Middle-Earth.

--
Jette Goldie
jette.goldie@gmail.com

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

--- Wayne wrote:

> <snipping the original post that sparked a whole lot of neat stuff>

I love this list. I come up for air from grad school to check the House and find this conversation. I love this list.

- Kel (submerging once again into the depths)

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On 11/10/2012 12:02 AM, Gwyn Ryan wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Jenny Tait <piratejenny@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> The letter/rune Wayne's talking about is thorn. At least that's the one I'm
>> pretty sure he's talking about.
>>
> Oh yeah, same rune, different name. I just used the Anglo-Saxon name
> because I mostly know it from my Germanic Pagan studies. I don't know
> if it still held the same pagan associations once it was passed down
> into Old English, and I don't know what Tolkien's source was, so I
> don't know if he had reason to be aware of those associations.

Er, Anglo-Saxon is Old English. Perhaps you knew the Germanic name for it?

And Tolkien was a major Old English scholar. He was also very familiar
with the Eddas and such and of course the Kalevala (which inspired much
of Elvish society).


--
Jen
___________
"You cheated."
"Pirate."

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

--- On Sat, 11/10/12, Jenny Tait <piratejenny@verizon.net> wrote:

> >
> Yeah. I like that one. :-) It's pronounced like "th" though.
> And looks
> like of like a p.

Yep, that's thorn. It was one of ways to write the phoneme 'th' as one letter then, along with 'eth', which is basically a 'd' with a line through the top, to demonstrate the difference between the two slightly different sounds. We still have those symbols in IPA, although we've dropped them in the English alphabet.

I now want to hunt for a couple of books I know I own, but I'm not sure where they are now. My Old English Reader, leftover from an undergraduate course in Anglo-Saxon, and Ruth Noel's The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth.

Ellen

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

randall.m@gmail.com said:
> I know Wikipaedia is not a robust source

Generally speaking, I'll agree with this. I have a feeling there's a subset
of pages that are so highly scrutinised that they're going to be pretty close
to correct. I'd put 25 cents on this being the case for the page on Gandalf.

Thanks for the pointer. That was an interesting piece of article.

> The Old Norse name Gandalfr incorporates the words *gandr* meaning "wand",
> "staff"

So what does it mean if you take a gandr at something?


gwynhefar@gmail.com said:
> From what I understand some of the Anglo-Saxon runes had tree
> associations, but others were associated with gods, or colours, or the
> four elements.

I love lists, so I've gotta dig up a list of these associations.


piratejenny@verizon.net said:
> I don't know enough about the magic system of the Germanic countries,
> but one of the meanings of the rune is the ash tree.

I can see that. You burn an ash tree (or any tree, really) and your left
with an ash. How much more magic can you get?


>> Except that one letter that became the 'y' like in "ye". That's associated
>> with the pointy things on roses.
>
> Yeah. I like that one. :-) It's pronounced like "th" though. And looks
> like of like a p.

It's a 'p' at half-mast.


>> I thought Thurisaz was associated with the Blackthorn tree, not rose
>> thorns. Also with the god Thor, of course.
>
> The letter/rune Wayne's talking about is thorn. At least that's the one
> I'm pretty sure he's talking about.

Yup, I was referring to the thorn. Thurisaz is a pretty cool name also.

Wayne

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Jenny Tait <piratejenny@verizon.net> wrote:

>
> The letter/rune Wayne's talking about is thorn. At least that's the one I'm
> pretty sure he's talking about.
>
Oh yeah, same rune, different name. I just used the Anglo-Saxon name
because I mostly know it from my Germanic Pagan studies. I don't know
if it still held the same pagan associations once it was passed down
into Old English, and I don't know what Tolkien's source was, so I
don't know if he had reason to be aware of those associations.

Gwyn

--
Rain and sun shall feed me now,
and roots, and nuts, and wild things,
and rustlings in the midnight wood,
half-mad, like Myrddin, wandering.

--Terri Windling

one day I am going to bloom
patient and proud
with fish in my mouth
and eyes in my wings

--Noe Venable


LJ: http://gwynraven.livejournal.com/

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On 11/9/2012 12:06 PM, Gwyn Ryan wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 1:14 AM, Wayne Morrison <tewok@storm-monkeys.com> wrote:
>>
>> Except that one letter that became the 'y' like in "ye". That's associated
>> with the pointy things on roses.
>>
>
> I thought Thurisaz was associated with the Blackthorn tree, not rose
> thorns. Also with the god Thor, of course.
>

The letter/rune Wayne's talking about is thorn. At least that's the one
I'm pretty sure he's talking about.


--
Jen
___________
"You cheated."
"Pirate."

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On 11/9/2012 1:14 AM, Wayne Morrison wrote:
> Jenny said:
>> But aelf (the ae is a ligature which is really a rune called aesc, again
>> with that ligature and pronounced ash) does in fact mean elf (or sprite
>> or fairy). Often with aesc, the e was eventually dropped or just made
>> into "ae" as with many Anglo-Saxon names.
>
> Some Celtic languages associated a tree with each letter. Any chance
> the same is true with Old English (or whatever aesc is from)?

I don't know enough about the magic system of the Germanic countries,
but one of the meanings of the rune is the ash tree.
>
> Except that one letter that became the 'y' like in "ye". That's associated
> with the pointy things on roses.
>
Yeah. I like that one. :-) It's pronounced like "th" though. And looks
like of like a p.


--
Jen
___________
"You cheated."
"Pirate."

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 1:14 AM, Wayne Morrison <tewok@storm-monkeys.com> wrote:
> Jenny said:
>> But aelf (the ae is a ligature which is really a rune called aesc, again
>> with that ligature and pronounced ash) does in fact mean elf (or sprite
>> or fairy). Often with aesc, the e was eventually dropped or just made
>> into "ae" as with many Anglo-Saxon names.
>
> Some Celtic languages associated a tree with each letter. Any chance
> the same is true with Old English (or whatever aesc is from)?

From what I understand some of the Anglo-Saxon runes had tree
associations, but others were associated with gods, or colours, or the
four elements.

> Except that one letter that became the 'y' like in "ye". That's associated
> with the pointy things on roses.
>

I thought Thurisaz was associated with the Blackthorn tree, not rose
thorns. Also with the god Thor, of course.

Gwyn

--
Rain and sun shall feed me now,
and roots, and nuts, and wild things,
and rustlings in the midnight wood,
half-mad, like Myrddin, wandering.

--Terri Windling

one day I am going to bloom
patient and proud
with fish in my mouth
and eyes in my wings

--Noe Venable


LJ: http://gwynraven.livejournal.com/

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

Jenny said:
> But aelf (the ae is a ligature which is really a rune called aesc, again
> with that ligature and pronounced ash) does in fact mean elf (or sprite
> or fairy). Often with aesc, the e was eventually dropped or just made
> into "ae" as with many Anglo-Saxon names.

Some Celtic languages associated a tree with each letter. Any chance
the same is true with Old English (or whatever aesc is from)?

Except that one letter that became the 'y' like in "ye". That's associated
with the pointy things on roses.

Wayne

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Jenny Tait <piratejenny@verizon.net> wrote:
On 11/8/2012 3:45 PM, Wayne Morrison wrote:

randall.m@gmail.com said:

In Tolkien's sources--the Elder Edda, I believe, though it's been a
while--Gandalf was a dwarf's name, so in the first drafts he may actually
have been a dwarf, not a wizard at all.

That's interesting.  I thought I'd heard that "alf" was a particle that
meant "elf".

The husband could most likely answer most of those questions.

But aelf (the ae is a ligature which is really a rune called aesc, again with that ligature and pronounced ash) does in fact mean elf (or sprite or fairy). Often with aesc, the e was eventually dropped or just made into "ae" as with many Anglo-Saxon names. Gandulf was a real Anglo-Saxon name.

As Tolkien was a scholar of Old English, I'm sure none of this was unintentional.



I know Wikipaedia is not a robust source, but here's something about Gandalf:

When writing The Hobbit in the early 1930s Tolkien gave the name Gandalf to the leader of the Dwarves, the character later called Thorin Oakenshield. The name is taken from the same source as all the other Dwarf names (save Balin) in The Hobbit: the "Catalogue of Dwarves" in the Völuspá.[4] The Old Norse name Gandalfr incorporates the words gandr meaning "wand", "staff" or (especially in compounds) "magic" and álfr "elf". The name Gandalf is found in at least one more place in Norse myth, in the semihistorical Heimskringla, which briefly describes Gandalf Alfgeirsson, a legendary Norse king from Eastern Norway and rival of Halfdan the Black.[5]


The name "Gandolf" occurs as a character in William Morris' 1896 fantasy novel The Well at the World's End. Morris' book is a multi-part 'magical journey' involving elves, dwarves and kings in a pseudo-medieval landscape which is known to have deeply influenced Tolkien.

Randall

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On 11/8/2012 3:45 PM, Wayne Morrison wrote:
> randall.m@gmail.com said:

>> In Tolkien's sources--the Elder Edda, I believe, though it's been a
>> while--Gandalf was a dwarf's name, so in the first drafts he may actually
>> have been a dwarf, not a wizard at all.
>
> That's interesting. I thought I'd heard that "alf" was a particle that
> meant "elf".
>
The husband could most likely answer most of those questions.

But aelf (the ae is a ligature which is really a rune called aesc, again
with that ligature and pronounced ash) does in fact mean elf (or sprite
or fairy). Often with aesc, the e was eventually dropped or just made
into "ae" as with many Anglo-Saxon names. Gandulf was a real Anglo-Saxon
name.

As Tolkien was a scholar of Old English, I'm sure none of this was
unintentional.

--
Jen
___________
"You cheated."
"Pirate."

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

<I now have an image of wharf dwarfs down on the piers, unloading cargo
from ships. That'd make them stevedwarves.
<Wayne

Groan!

Suzi

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

randall.m@gmail.com said:
> It makes for a great sequence in which the Trolls are perfectly
> comprehensible characters. One could argue whether Tolkien giving them
> Cockney accents was a way of putting down the poor of his time, or whether
> it was meant to make us sympathise with the trolls . . . just poor working
> blokes out of the hills looking for something that isn't mutton to eat.

Good question and I have no idea. I don't know what Tolkien's politics were
like, so I don't even know what was likely. I'll choose to believe your
second option because I didn't realize they had Cockney accents and I really
like the idea that the trolls are regular guys just out in the hills.

Given the treasure stored up in their cave, I'm not sure I'd include them in
the ranks of the working poor.


> In Tolkien's sources--the Elder Edda, I believe, though it's been a
> while--Gandalf was a dwarf's name, so in the first drafts he may actually
> have been a dwarf, not a wizard at all.

That's interesting. I thought I'd heard that "alf" was a particle that
meant "elf".


> These are definitely kids' elves, not the epic warriors that we meet
> later. But then, the Hobbits are really just glorified kids at this point.

Glorified kids that smoke and drink and prefer to live the comfortable,
carefree life.

Maybe they're teenagers.


> Randall (this *is*, though, the book that has led to millions of people
> misspelling the plural of "dwarf")

"davies"?

moonlight.aileen@gmail.com said:
> Since a good friend of mine bought midnight premiere tickets for us,
> this sounds like a great idea!

Cool! Lucky you to get to the premiere.

Other than the "midnight" and "premiere" parts, that's exactly why I'm
reading it now.


Another thing about Gandalf. I'm finding it impossible to not hear Ian
McKellan's voice speaking Gandalves' dialog.


gwynhefar@gmail.com said:
> I know it's not correct, but it just seems more consistent: one wharf,
> two wharves; one scarf, two scarves; one dwarf, two dwarves. Not that
> English is exactly known for it's consistency :)

I now have an image of wharf dwarfs down on the piers, unloading cargo
from ships. That'd make them stevedwarves.

Wayne

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Randall M. <randall.m@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Wayne Morrison <tewok@storm-monkeys.com>
> wrote:

>
> Randall (this *is*, though, the book that has led to millions of people
> misspelling the plural of "dwarf")

I know it's not correct, but it just seems more consistent: one wharf,
two wharves; one scarf, two scarves; one dwarf, two dwarves. Not that
English is exactly known for it's consistency :)

Gwyn

--
Rain and sun shall feed me now,
and roots, and nuts, and wild things,
and rustlings in the midnight wood,
half-mad, like Myrddin, wandering.

--Terri Windling

one day I am going to bloom
patient and proud
with fish in my mouth
and eyes in my wings

--Noe Venable


LJ: http://gwynraven.livejournal.com/

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Wayne Morrison <tewok@storm-monkeys.com> wrote:
> I'm re-reading The Hobbit.

Since a good friend of mine bought midnight premiere tickets for us,
this sounds like a great idea!

- Carol

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Re: The Hobbit, after all these years

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Wayne Morrison <tewok@storm-monkeys.com> wrote:
I'm re-reading The Hobbit.  It's been a looong time since I last read it.
I don't remember when, but it was many years prior to the Jackson LotR.
I've only gotten as far as The Gang getting to the goblin cave and there
are few things that have struck me so far.

 - Most books with trolls would name them things like Shnurnk, Waggfrump,
  and Grfnozul.  JRRT avoided the obvious and named his trolls William,
  Bert, and Tom.  I think those are fantastic names for trolls.


It makes for a great sequence in which the Trolls are perfectly comprehensible characters.  One could argue whether Tolkien giving them Cockney accents was a way of putting down the poor of his time, or whether it was meant to make us sympathise with the trolls . . . just poor working blokes out of the hills looking for something that isn't mutton to eat.
 
- Gandalf doesn't seem to be as knowledgable as in LotR.  He also seems to
  be a bit more of a comical character than he becomes in the later books.


In Tolkien's sources--the Elder Edda, I believe, though it's been a while--Gandalf was a dwarf's name, so in the first drafts he may actually have been a dwarf, not a wizard at all.
 
- There seems to be a slight implication that Elrond isn't an elf.

- The elves themselves give a different impression than in LotR -- less
  serious and more like happy hippies.

These are definitely kids' elves, not the epic warriors that we meet later.  But then, the Hobbits are really just glorified kids at this point.

 
Those are just some impressions, maybe things will change as it goes along.

                                Wayne

It does get a lot darker, and Gandalf shows hidden depths by the end. 

Randall (this *is*, though, the book that has led to millions of people misspelling the plural of "dwarf")

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The Hobbit, after all these years

I'm re-reading The Hobbit. It's been a looong time since I last read it.
I don't remember when, but it was many years prior to the Jackson LotR.
I've only gotten as far as The Gang getting to the goblin cave and there
are few things that have struck me so far.

- It has much more of the feeling of a children's book than I remembered.

- Most books with trolls would name them things like Shnurnk, Waggfrump,
and Grfnozul. JRRT avoided the obvious and named his trolls William,
Bert, and Tom. I think those are fantastic names for trolls.

- Gandalf doesn't seem to be as knowledgable as in LotR. He also seems to
be a bit more of a comical character than he becomes in the later books.

- There seems to be a slight implication that Elrond isn't an elf.

- The elves themselves give a different impression than in LotR -- less
serious and more like happy hippies.

Those are just some impressions, maybe things will change as it goes along.

Wayne

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