Home & House

piratejenny@verizon.net said:
> Anecdotal evidence: I've discovered an "Indian princess" (Mary Hyanno,
> born 1623ish) in Tony's genealogy.

Me too. Kind of. Sort of. I've got a European ancestor whose last name
was, believe it or not, Princess. She married a Native man.


> As to your more general folklore question, I'm guessing Maria Tartar has
> looked into it. I have a few of her books but I have yet to actually
> read them. It does sound right up her alley though.

Thanks for the pointer. I'll see if I can find if she's written about
this at all.

Wayne

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moonlight.aileen@gmail.com said:
> Given that historically the dominant members of society (read: white
> colonists/settlers etc) saw the societies that they were subjugating
> (Indigenous populations, slaves, etc ad naeuseum) as being subhuman, I
> wonder if part of it arose from a need to justify their attraction to
> certain individuals.

Could be. I expect something was needed to justify treating some
subhumans as if they were real people. Without a justification,
one might start wondering why the others were treated so poorly.

I wonder if this sort of justification happened when Europeans started
invading Central and South America.

Wayne

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On 7/30/2015 8:57 AM, Katrina Knight wrote:
> At 09:42 PM 7/29/2015, Kris Howell wrote:
>> Katrina said: Amusingly, the library doesn't think that this book is
>> fantasy.
>>
>> How have they classified it??
>
> General fiction.
>

That may be how the publisher classified it. We published The Magicians
trilogy by Lev Grossman as fiction. Meaning that it was published by
Viking, not by a science fiction or fantasy imprint. And imprint does
matter for classification, at least by publisher; I'm not sure about by
library or Library of Congress--but the LoC classifies things according
to how the publisher tells them to classify it and that can possibly
affect how both bookstores and libraries classify the book.

Jenny

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On 7/30/2015 12:25 AM, Wayne Morrison wrote:
> moonlight.aileen@gmail.com said:
>> Still mulling over your folklore question? I'm intrigued now.
> Actually, I sent it to the list about a week ago. I've been wondering why
> there was such a roaring silence about it. I saved the message, fortunately,
> and I'll append it below.
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
> Earlier today, I mentioned that I've got a question about folklore and
> folktales. I finally wrote things down, and I hope it's coherent and
> understandable. It turns out it's a few more than just one question.
>
>
> I was talking recently with a friend. She is Native American -- part Osage,
> part Creek. She was complaining about the old "Indian Princess" stereotype.
> She said if there are Indian Princesses, then there must be Indian Princes
> and she wants to know where all the Indian Princes are.
>
> We also started wondering where the Indian Princess stereotype came from.
> I think some say that Pocahontas was the start of the stereotype, or at
> least she was the earliest well-known one.
>
> I'm not very familiar with many details of the Indian Princess stereotype.
> I think one of the common parts of the stereotype is that the Indian Princess
> is the "prize", and she was usually (always?) pursued by white Europeans.
>
> I started wondering about princesses in European folktales. I don't know
> piles of folktales, but I think that princesses in European folktales often
> seemed to be prizes. Kill the dragon, win the prize. Perform the labors
> of the king, win the prize. Were there many European folktales where the
> princess did more than act as a prize? I'm probably more familiar with the
> Disney versions of the folktales than the real versions.
>
> What about the prize pursuer? I think it was often a tailor or a peasant
> or a jack, but was it often a prince?
>
> Did the Indian Princess stereotype evolve from a generic European Princess
> stereotype? (Seeing as Native Americans were new and more exotic than the
> boring old Europeans we've always known.) Is there a European Princess
> stereotype? If so, did it get imported from somewhere else? Is there a
> generic Princess stereotype? Before Columbus and co. started visiting North
> America frequently, did different regions in Europe look at other regions
> as being the exotics? Did Spanish* folktales talk about the Swedes as
> being the exotics? Did the Finns look at Bulgarians as being ultra exotic?
> I think I read that China looked at India as being the exotic, and that's
> why Monkey went to India in "A Journey to the West."
>
> I guess the basic question I have is about the evolution of princesses in
> folklore. Has any research in this area been done? How 'bout the role of
> the exotic in folklore?
>
> Wayne
>
> * For convenience sake, modern placenames are standing in for regions
> that have changed names piles o' times over the centuries.
>


I do think it was Europeans thrusting the "princess" idea upon the Natives.

Anecdotal evidence: I've discovered an "Indian princess" (Mary Hyanno,
born 1623ish) in Tony's genealogy. She was the daughter of a Wampanoag
chieftain, so naturally she must be a princess, you see. Mind you, her
husband, this Bearse guy, was pretty known for telling tales (he said he
was kicked out of England because he was a Gypsy; that's also why he had
to marry an Indian, of course--none of the other settlers would have
him), and nobody's actually been able to verify if this story is true.
DNA testing hasn't come through with anything because of known
descendants, most have Native blood through other lines.

As to your more general folklore question, I'm guessing Maria Tartar has
looked into it. I have a few of her books but I have yet to actually
read them. It does sound right up her alley though.

Jenny

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At 09:41 PM 7/29/2015, Kris Howell wrote:
>And while we are on the subject of books - I've eagerly read
>all of Seanan McGuire's October Daye books and am impatiently
>waiting the next one this fall.

I've read a bunch of those and really enjoyed them.

--
Katrina Knight
kknight@fastmail.fm

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At 09:11 AM 7/30/2015, 'Ellen Rawson' via Tamson House wrote:
>I've seen that where I am also. The Hampshire library system
>classifies a lot of books as general fiction that might
>otherwise be classified as science fiction/fantasy. I find it
>interesting and am uncertain as to where they draw the line.
>I've not been that intrigued to ask, though. :)

Our library doesn't seem to have drawn any lines. Sometimes I
think they do it rather randomly. I have found books from a
single series distributed across fantasy, science fiction, and
general fiction. Sometimes some of them end up in young adult
fiction too. I typically just request books when I know what I
want because hunting all over the building for books gets
tedious. I'm not even sure where they've moved the YA books too
other than that it isn't on the main floor any more. (The
library has several floors.)

>The same thing, goes for mystery/crime books. I was happy to
>see the Hampshire library system bringing in imported copies of
>Nevada Barr's Anna Pigeon series. (They're not published over
>here, but people must have been requesting them for the library
>to buy them.) Now, I know that those books are considered
>mysteries in the US. I went to book signings/talks with Nevada
>Barr at Boulder's former Rue Morgue Mystery Book Store. But
>Hampshire classifies the Anna Pigeon books as general fiction.

The pattern here seems to be that what I'd call mystery/crime
books turn into general fiction when the authors become popular.


I think that how the publisher promotes the book has at least
something to do with the labels, but it obviously isn't the
whole story.

--
Katrina Knight
kknight@fastmail.fm

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At 09:42 PM 7/29/2015, Kris Howell wrote:
>Katrina said: Amusingly, the library doesn't think that this
>book is fantasy.
>
>How have they classified it??

General fiction.

--
Katrina Knight
kknight@fastmail.fm

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moonlight.aileen@gmail.com said:
> Still mulling over your folklore question? I'm intrigued now.

Actually, I sent it to the list about a week ago. I've been wondering why
there was such a roaring silence about it. I saved the message, fortunately,
and I'll append it below.

Wayne




Earlier today, I mentioned that I've got a question about folklore and
folktales. I finally wrote things down, and I hope it's coherent and
understandable. It turns out it's a few more than just one question.


I was talking recently with a friend. She is Native American -- part Osage,
part Creek. She was complaining about the old "Indian Princess" stereotype.
She said if there are Indian Princesses, then there must be Indian Princes
and she wants to know where all the Indian Princes are.

We also started wondering where the Indian Princess stereotype came from.
I think some say that Pocahontas was the start of the stereotype, or at
least she was the earliest well-known one.

I'm not very familiar with many details of the Indian Princess stereotype.
I think one of the common parts of the stereotype is that the Indian Princess
is the "prize", and she was usually (always?) pursued by white Europeans.

I started wondering about princesses in European folktales. I don't know
piles of folktales, but I think that princesses in European folktales often
seemed to be prizes. Kill the dragon, win the prize. Perform the labors
of the king, win the prize. Were there many European folktales where the
princess did more than act as a prize? I'm probably more familiar with the
Disney versions of the folktales than the real versions.

What about the prize pursuer? I think it was often a tailor or a peasant
or a jack, but was it often a prince?

Did the Indian Princess stereotype evolve from a generic European Princess
stereotype? (Seeing as Native Americans were new and more exotic than the
boring old Europeans we've always known.) Is there a European Princess
stereotype? If so, did it get imported from somewhere else? Is there a
generic Princess stereotype? Before Columbus and co. started visiting North
America frequently, did different regions in Europe look at other regions
as being the exotics? Did Spanish* folktales talk about the Swedes as
being the exotics? Did the Finns look at Bulgarians as being ultra exotic?
I think I read that China looked at India as being the exotic, and that's
why Monkey went to India in "A Journey to the West."

I guess the basic question I have is about the evolution of princesses in
folklore. Has any research in this area been done? How 'bout the role of
the exotic in folklore?

Wayne

* For convenience sake, modern placenames are standing in for regions
that have changed names piles o' times over the centuries.

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On 29/07/15 18:30, Katrina Knight wrote:
> At 12:23 PM 7/29/2015, 'Ellen Rawson' via Tamson House wrote:
>> It's Elizabeth Hand's latest book, Wylding Hall.
>
> This sounds interesting. I've added it to my already huge wish list.
>
> While we're on the subject or recommending books, I have a
> recommendation to make too - The Paper Magician by Charlie N. Holmberg.
> I found this book at my library last week. I'm about two-thirds of the
> way through and really enjoying it. Ceony Twill is apprenticed to a
> paper magician despite her desire to work with metals rather than paper.
> After she's barely begun to learn to use paper magic, her teacher is
> attacked by a rogue magician who practices the dark art of flesh magic
> and Ceony must save him. The magic involved is interesting rather
> cliched and the characters are likable. There are at two sequels which I
> intend to get from the library as well.

There are three books in that series according to Amazon.



--
Bernard Peek
bap@shrdlu.com

In search of cognoscenti (again)

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At 12:23 PM 7/29/2015, 'Ellen Rawson' via Tamson House wrote:
>It's Elizabeth Hand's latest book, Wylding Hall.

This sounds interesting. I've added it to my already huge wish
list.

While we're on the subject or recommending books, I have a
recommendation to make too - The Paper Magician by Charlie N.
Holmberg. I found this book at my library last week. I'm about
two-thirds of the way through and really enjoying it. Ceony
Twill is apprenticed to a paper magician despite her desire to
work with metals rather than paper. After she's barely begun to
learn to use paper magic, her teacher is attacked by a rogue
magician who practices the dark art of flesh magic and Ceony
must save him. The magic involved is interesting rather cliched
and the characters are likable. There are at two sequels which I
intend to get from the library as well.

Amusingly, the library doesn't think that this book is fantasy.

--
Katrina Knight
kknight@fastmail.fm

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